Base File Peak Grades: Point Guards

A few weeks ago, I dumped a ton of players ratings into Discord with the intent of getting some feedback. The response was tepid at best, so I wanted to try to give you those same ratings in a different format to see if the sheer amount of players on the index overwhelmed those who may have been willing to gripe the file. I'm going to do this position by position and rating by rating, with the idea being simply to make it easier to eyeball things that you find off. As with all gripes, suggesting what should be changed is more helpful than simply making an observation and leaving me to figure out what you think should be updated.

As I mentioned in Discord, this originally started as a random selection of players from 1996-2008. I've since added a few more players from these drafts, as well as added more players from the 2009 and 2010 drafts. All of these ratings are the players as they were considered in their peaks; do not worry about a "base year".

Any +1's or -1's noted are differences from the original ratings posted on Discord.

One last note, the sorting within grades is alphabetical and is not attempting to rank players.

Thanks to those of you who end up helping!

Inside Scoring

A+:
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A:
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A-:
Allen Iverson
Derrick Rose (+1)
Russell Westbrook
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B+:
Gilbert Arenas
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B:
Baron Davis
Eric Bledsoe (NEW)
John Wall (NEW)
Stephon Marbury
Steve Francis
Tony Parker (+1)
---------------
B-:
Andre Miller (+1)
Chris Paul
Deron Williams
Devin Harris
Jeff Teague (NEW)
Lou Williams
Nate Robinson
Rodney Stuckey
Stephen Curry (NEW)
---------------
C+:
Aaron Brooks
Antonio Daniels
Brandon Jennings (NEW)
Chauncey Billups
Darren Collison (NEW)
Earl Boykins
George Hill
Goran Dragic
Jameer Nelson
Jason Terry
Jay Williams
Jeremy Lin (NEW)
Jerryd Bayless
Jordan Farmar
Jrue Holiday (NEW)
Keyon Dooling
Kyle Lowry
Marcus Banks
Mike Bibby
Mike Conley
Mike James
Rajon Rondo
Raymond Felton
Shaun Livingston (+1)
Smush Parker
Speedy Claxton
T.J. Ford
Tony Delk
Ty Lawson (NEW)
---------------
C:
Acie Law
Alvin Williams
Beno Udrih
Bobby Jackson (-1)
Brevin Knight
Bryce Drew
C.J. Watson
Carlos Arroyo
Chucky Atkins
D.J. Augustin
Damon Jones
Dan Dickau
Daniel Gibson (-1)
Derek Fisher
Earl Watson
Eddie House
Eric Maynor (NEW)
Ish Smith (NEW)
J.J. Barea
J.R. Bremer
Jacque Vaughn
Jannero Pargo
Jarrett Jack
Jason Williams
Jose Calderon
Kirk Hinrich
Luke Ridnour
Mario Chalmers
Milt Palacio
Mo Williams
Moochie Norris
Patrick Beverley (NEW)
Patty Mills (NEW)
Rafer Alston
Ricky Rubio (NEW)
Royal Ivey
Salim Stoudamire (NEW)
Sebastian Telfair
Shammond Williams
Steve Blake
Steve Nash
Tyronn Lue
---------------
C-:
---------------
D+:
---------------
D:
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D-:
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F+:
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F:
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F-:

Outside Scoring

A+:
---------------
A:
---------------
A-:
Eddie House
Jason Terry
Stephen Curry (NEW)
Steve Nash
---------------
B+:
Chauncey Billups
Chris Paul
Damon Jones (+1)
Darren Collison (NEW)
Jameer Nelson
Jose Calderon
Kyle Lowry (+1)
Luke Ridnour
Mo Williams (-1)
Patty Mills (NEW)
---------------
B:
Aaron Brooks
Beno Udrih
Bobby Jackson
C.J. Watson
Chucky Atkins
D.J. Augustin
Daniel Gibson (-1)
Derek Fisher
Deron Williams
George Hill
Gilbert Arenas
Goran Dragic
Jannero Pargo
Jarrett Jack
Jason Williams (+1)
Jeff Teague (NEW)
Jerryd Bayless
Jordan Farmar
Jrue Holiday (NEW)
Kirk Hinrich
Lou Williams
Mario Chalmers
Mike Bibby
Mike Conley
Mike James
Nate Robinson
Patrick Beverley (NEW)
Salim Stoudamire (NEW)
Steve Blake
Tyronn Lue
---------------
B-:
Brandon Jennings (NEW)
Bryce Drew
Carlos Arroyo
Dan Dickau
Derrick Rose
Earl Boykins (-1)
Earl Watson
Eric Bledsoe (NEW)
Eric Maynor (NEW)
J.J. Barea (-1)
J.R. Bremer
Jacque Vaughn
Jeremy Lin (NEW)
Rafer Alston
Raymond Felton
Ricky Rubio (NEW)
Russell Westbrook
Shammond Williams
Smush Parker
Steve Francis
Tony Delk
Ty Lawson (NEW)
---------------
C+:
Allen Iverson
Alvin Williams
Antonio Daniels
Baron Davis (-1)
Devin Harris
Ish Smith (NEW)
Jay Williams
John Wall (NEW)
Keyon Dooling (-1)
Marcus Banks
Moochie Norris
Rodney Stuckey
Royal Ivey (-1)
Sebastian Telfair (-1)
Stephon Marbury
T.J. Ford
Tony Parker
---------------
C:
Acie Law
Andre Miller
Brevin Knight (+1)
Milt Palacio
Rajon Rondo (-1)
Shaun Livingston
Speedy Claxton
---------------
C-:
---------------
D+:
---------------
D:
---------------
D-:
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F+:
---------------
F:
---------------
F-:

Handling

A+:
Chris Paul
---------------
A:
Deron Williams
John Wall (NEW)
Jose Calderon
Rajon Rondo
Russell Westbrook
Steve Nash (-1)
---------------
A-:
Andre Miller
Brevin Knight
Chauncey Billups
Derrick Rose
J.J. Barea
Jason Williams
Ricky Rubio (NEW)
Stephon Marbury
Tony Parker
Ty Lawson (NEW)
---------------
B+:
Allen Iverson
Baron Davis (-1)
Ish Smith (NEW)
Jeff Teague (NEW)
Jrue Holiday (NEW)
Kyle Lowry
Mike Conley (-1)
Stephen Curry (NEW)
T.J. Ford (-1)
---------------
B:
Antonio Daniels
Brandon Jennings (NEW)
Carlos Arroyo
D.J. Augustin
Darren Collison (NEW)
Devin Harris
Earl Boykins (-1)
Earl Watson
Eric Maynor (NEW)
Goran Dragic
Jameer Nelson (-1)
Kirk Hinrich
Luke Ridnour
Mike Bibby
Rafer Alston
Raymond Felton (-1)
Speedy Claxton
---------------
B-:
Alvin Williams (-1)
Damon Jones (-1)
Eric Bledsoe (NEW)
Jarrett Jack (-1)
Jason Terry
Lou Williams (-1)
Mike James
Mo Williams (-1)
Nate Robinson (-1)
Steve Blake (-1)
Steve Francis
---------------
C+:
Aaron Brooks
Beno Udrih (-1)
C.J. Watson
Chucky Atkins
Dan Dickau (-1)
George Hill
Gilbert Arenas (-1)
Jacque Vaughn (-1)
Jannero Pargo
Jay Williams
Jeremy Lin (NEW)
Jerryd Bayless
Jordan Farmar
Moochie Norris (-1)
Patty Mills (NEW)
Rodney Stuckey
Sebastian Telfair
Shammond Williams
Shaun Livingston
Tyronn Lue
---------------
C:
Acie Law
Bobby Jackson
Bryce Drew (-1)
Daniel Gibson
Derek Fisher (-1)
Eddie House
J.R. Bremer
Keyon Dooling (-1)
Marcus Banks
Mario Chalmers (-1)
Milt Palacio (-1)
Patrick Beverley (NEW)
Smush Parker
Tony Delk
---------------
C-:
Royal Ivey
Salim Stoudamire (NEW)
---------------
D+:
---------------
D:
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D-:
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F+:
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F:
---------------
F-:

Defense

A+:
---------------
A:
---------------
A-:
Chris Paul
Jrue Holiday (NEW)
Patrick Beverley (NEW)
Rajon Rondo
---------------
B+:
Baron Davis (+1)
Brevin Knight (+1)
Eric Bledsoe (NEW)
Kyle Lowry (-1)
Mike Conley
---------------
B:
Alvin Williams
Andre Miller
Chauncey Billups (-1)
George Hill
John Wall (NEW)
Kirk Hinrich
Mario Chalmers
Shaun Livingston (+1)
---------------
B-:
Allen Iverson (-2)
C.J. Watson (-1)
Derek Fisher (+1)
Derrick Rose (-1)
Deron Williams
Devin Harris (-1)
Earl Watson
Gilbert Arenas (-1)
Goran Dragic (+1)
Jason Terry (+1)
Jeff Teague (NEW)
Jeremy Lin (NEW)
Ricky Rubio (NEW)
Russell Westbrook (-1)
Speedy Claxton
Stephen Curry (NEW)
Steve Francis (-1)
T.J. Ford
Tony Parker (-1)
---------------
C+:
Antonio Daniels
Beno Udrih (+1)
Bobby Jackson (+1)
Brandon Jennings (NEW)
Darren Collison (NEW)
Ish Smith (NEW)
Jacque Vaughn (+1)
Jameer Nelson
Jarrett Jack
Jason Williams
Jay Williams
Jordan Farmar
Keyon Dooling
Luke Ridnour
Marcus Banks
Mike Bibby
Milt Palacio
Moochie Norris
Rafer Alston
Raymond Felton
Rodney Stuckey
Royal Ivey (-1)
Smush Parker
Stephon Marbury
Steve Blake
Tony Delk
Ty Lawson (NEW)
---------------
C:
Aaron Brooks
Acie Law
Bryce Drew
Carlos Arroyo
Chucky Atkins
D.J. Augustin
Damon Jones
Dan Dickau
Daniel Gibson
Earl Boykins
Eddie House
Eric Maynor (NEW)
J.J. Barea
J.R. Bremer
Jannero Pargo
Jerryd Bayless (-1)
Jose Calderon (-1)
Lou Williams (-1)
Mike James
Mo Williams (-1)
Nate Robinson (-1)
Patty Mills (NEW)
Sebastian Telfair
Shammond Williams
Steve Nash
Tyronn Lue (-1)
---------------
C-:
Salim Stoudamire (NEW)
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D+:
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D:
---------------
D-:
---------------
F+:
---------------
F:
---------------
F-:

A+:
---------------
A:
---------------
A-:
---------------
B+:
---------------
B:
---------------
B-:
---------------
C+:
Russell Westbrook
---------------
C:
Chris Paul (+1)
Kyle Lowry
Patrick Beverley (NEW)
Rajon Rondo
Steve Francis
---------------
C-:
Allen Iverson
Andre Miller
Baron Davis
Bobby Jackson (-1)
Brevin Knight
Chauncey Billups
Deron Williams
Derrick Rose
Devin Harris
Earl Watson
Eddie House
Eric Bledsoe (NEW)
George Hill
Gilbert Arenas
Goran Dragic
Ish Smith (NEW)
J.J. Barea
Jameer Nelson
Jarrett Jack
Jeff Teague (NEW)
Jeremy Lin (NEW)
Jerryd Bayless
John Wall (NEW)
Jrue Holiday (NEW)
Mo Williams
Moochie Norris
Nate Robinson
Rafer Alston
Raymond Felton
Ricky Rubio (NEW)
Rodney Stuckey
Shaun Livingston
Stephen Curry (NEW)
Steve Nash
T.J. Ford
Tony Delk
Tony Parker
---------------
D+:
Aaron Brooks
Acie Law
Alvin Williams
Antonio Daniels
Beno Udrih
Brandon Jennings (NEW)
C.J. Watson (-1)
Carlos Arroyo (-1)
Damon Jones
Dan Dickau
Daniel Gibson (-1)
Darren Collison (NEW)
Derek Fisher
Eric Maynor (NEW)
J.R. Bremer
Jacque Vaughn
Jannero Pargo
Jason Terry
Jason Williams
Jay Williams
Jordan Farmar
Jose Calderon
Kirk Hinrich
Lou Williams
Luke Ridnour
Marcus Banks
Mario Chalmers
Mike Bibby
Mike Conley
Mike James
Milt Palacio
Patty Mills (NEW)
Royal Ivey
Shammond Williams
Smush Parker
Speedy Claxton (-1)
Stephon Marbury
Steve Blake
Ty Lawson (NEW)
---------------
D:
Bryce Drew
Chucky Atkins (-1)
D.J. Augustin
Earl Boykins (-1)
Keyon Dooling (-1)
Salim Stoudamire (NEW)
Sebastian Telfair (-1)
Tyronn Lue (-1)
---------------
D-:
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F+:
---------------
F:
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F-:

I don’t know how Steph can have a better defensive grade than a guy like Ricky Rubio. I think he needs a bump down there for sure

I would raise DRose's inside scoring to A-. I feel he was the same level of paint scorer as Russ. Curry should be an A outside scorer stop fucking playing with his name like that. He doesn't have a peer with outside scoring. I don't agree with Jameer and Jrue being B+ outside guys. I feel a B is more than fine. I'd probably drop Rubio to a C + outside scorer. Why is Lou Williams a tier higher than Steve Francis in handling. Don't use TO's as your main selling point when Lou never was a primary handler. Great job on the A grades for the defense section...no complaints from me there. Would lower Curry to a B- defensively.

The only ratings I can reliably critique are inside and outside scoring. I don’t love the idea of all guards being C or better, some of these guys are bums compared to league average and need to be separated from the pack.

Alternately, guys like Steph and Nash belong in a class of their own as outside scorers as the only A peak PGs. Billups and CP3 should also move up a tier as they were consistently top 5 type shooting PGs in their primes. Billups was more of a facilitator so it didn’t show, but he was Mr Big Shot for a reason IMO.

As mentioned, I don’t feel comfortable griping handles or defense as they are easily inflated by some ratings that would require me to break down every single player and their style and see if it matches what I’d expect. All in all, the PG list looks respectable.

I feel like Jrue is a little OP with a B+ outside. I know it’s a small sample size compared to his regular season stats, but the man shoots like Eric Bledsoe in the playoffs. B seems like the right grade to me

Apr 16, 2024 16:46:56 GMT -5 shellystrick4l said:

I don’t know how Steph can have a better defensive grade than a guy like Ricky Rubio. I think he needs a bump down there for sure

Fine lowering him to a B- DEF grade on the rise fringe.

Apr 16, 2024 16:53:23 GMT -5 tyo said:

I would raise DRose's inside scoring to A-. I feel he was the same level of paint scorer as Russ. Curry should be an A outside scorer stop fucking playing with his name like that. He doesn't have a peer with outside scoring. I don't agree with Jameer and Jrue being B+ outside guys. I feel a B is more than fine. I'd probably drop Rubio to a C + outside scorer. Why is Lou Williams a tier higher than Steve Francis in handling. Don't use TO's as your main selling point when Lou never was a primary handler. Great job on the A grades for the defense section...no complaints from me there. Would lower Curry to a B- defensively.

- Derrick Rose: I don't agree with this based on the three-year peaks criteria provided. I'll do the same breakdown I did in the PF thread:

Player	Close FG	Close FGA	Close FG%	FTA	USG%
Rose (2009-2012)	6.14	11.85	51.81%	8.21	29.86%
Westbrook (2015-2018)	5.87	11.35	51.70%	11.56	35.81%

With that said, Rose might warrant an injury exception to only look at a two-year period (the MVP year and the lockout season after), and doing that would up him to A- INS. Not crazy about it, but I'll leave it there for now and update the post above.

- Stephen Curry: The OUT ratings are just very nerfed here. Obviously, he'd be the first to warrant an A if it was gettable. I'll address your DEF grade gripe here too, I already lowered to B- DEF.
- Jameer Nelson: He's right on the drop fringe, I actually think he deserves to sit above it based on his three-year peak where he was 40.8% from three on nearly four attempts per game.
- Jrue Holiday: Actually already lowered Jrue's OUT grade to B, I've updated the post to reflect that.
- Ricky Rubio: If I was looking at just Minnesota Rubio, I absolutely agree. But post-knee injury, he actually developed enough of a shot that I think he deserves B- OUT. You could definitely argue these were some of his best years, too.
- Lou Williams / Steve Francis: I'm fine with lowering Lou Williams to B- HAN. He got an uptick because his playmaking increased towards the end of his career when he actually was playing a lot of PG on the Clippers/Hawks, but I think it's fine to ignore those last two years because he was complete ass.

Thanks for the gripes.

Apr 16, 2024 17:59:51 GMT -5 raidernation said:

The only ratings I can reliably critique are inside and outside scoring. I don’t love the idea of all guards being C or better, some of these guys are bums compared to league average and need to be separated from the pack.

Alternately, guys like Steph and Nash belong in a class of their own as outside scorers as the only A peak PGs. Billups and CP3 should also move up a tier as they were consistently top 5 type shooting PGs in their primes. Billups was more of a facilitator so it didn’t show, but he was Mr Big Shot for a reason IMO.

As mentioned, I don’t feel comfortable griping handles or defense as they are easily inflated by some ratings that would require me to break down every single player and their style and see if it matches what I’d expect. All in all, the PG list looks respectable.

- Stephen Curry / Steve Nash: As I mentioned above, the A OUT just is nearly impossible to obtain on the current generator. Curry would be the first person to go up if I inflated everybody, and Nash might not be far behind.
- Chauncey Billups / Chris Paul: I'm fine with both of them being B+ OUT based on the way the current tiers stand.

Apr 17, 2024 16:08:49 GMT -5 kdogg said:

I feel like Jrue is a little OP with a B+ outside. I know it’s a small sample size compared to his regular season stats, but the man shoots like Eric Bledsoe in the playoffs. B seems like the right grade to me

Not factoring in the playoffs stats, but I did already lower him to B OUT. He's still right on the rise fringe, though. The shot-making he's shown in the last few seasons has been at another level for him, I wouldn't have had him anywhere near B+ OUT before that.

Eddie House should be an A- outside scorer

-Inside Scoring: I think Wall and Francis could be elevated to B+. High-flying slashers, i would say both are on par with Gilbert finishing wise. Steph is also easily at a B, and i could even argue for B+. His percentages are outrageous. 65% within 3 feet of the basket for his career, with rim finishing being 2nd only to 3s when it comes to most common shot locations, even higher than the midrange. 

-Outside Scoring:
Steph to an A. I don't think i have to elaborate on that one. I could argue for Ty Lawson being a B (no bias). 37% from 3 during his 5 year peak, on 3 attempts a game. Solid splits between 10-16 (45%) and 16-3pt (38) for his career, splits that are 5 points above league average and league average (relative to era) respectively. Him being on the same tier as Westbrook (who i love) and Rubio, who were both below average shooters from deep and league average in both midrange areas doesn't feel right. Also, Marbury being in the same tier as Rondo as shooters is insane. Marbury wasn't anything special from deep (33% for his career on 4 attempts a game) but we are comparing him to a guy who at his 4 year peak was averaging 23% from 3 on less than 1 attempt a game. Marbury's midrange splits are league average (especially relative to era) whilst Rondo's were worse than Marbury's, almost an entire decade after Marbury's peak. Since i don't think Marbury warrants a B- with his splits i think Rondo should be toned down to C, especially when someone like Shaun Livingston is there, who maybe did not shoot 3s at all but averaged an insane 45% from 10-16 and a solid 39% from 16-3pt.

-Handling:
I think Nash should go back to A+. I do believe CP3 is a better facilitator than him but i think he is closer to CP3 than any player in the A tier is to Nash. Felton should also be B+ imo. 3 seasons with 7+ apg (one of them being an 8 apg season), with a relatively low amount of turnovers for a player with so many touches a game. He has had multiple seasons with a 2+ ast/tov ratio which is usually the cut off for great playmakers. Felton has 4 seasons of at least 5.5 apg with at least a 2.5 ast/tov ratio. That's borderline elite. I know that his speed is what is keeping him below B+ but i think a boost is necessary. Lou Williams in the same tier as Mo Williams is also bothering me. By taking a look at the rest of the players in said tier i think Mo is the one that should be bumped. 

-Defense:
Beverley at an A-, next to guys like CP3, Rondo and Jrue doesn't sit right with me. Same goes for Lowry but in a smaller scale. I think Beverley is a reputation defender. Good, great even, but doesn't touch guys like Jrue imo. I can be lenient and accept a B+ for him although i would personally place him at B. I think a Lowry downgrade is also needed, but a smaller one, just at B+. Eric Bledsoe should also be downgraded imo. Solid defender for his career but his defensive peak didn't correlate with his actual playing peak. If guys like Blake Griffin get "penalized" for also changing player profiles through the years then I think the same should be done with Bledsoe. At his Phoenix peak i really don't think that he was a B+ worthy defender. Also, Iverson played the passing lanes well and Rose was a dynamic defender but I don't think they should be in the same tier with guys like Kirk Hinrich and mostly Chauncey Billups and John Wall. I don't mind either a downgrade for the former 2 or a bump for the latter 3, i just know that they shouldn't be in the same tier as defenders imo.

-Rebounding:
I don't know the caps for rebounding relative to height. I assume the cap is C+ or else Westbrook should be 1 or 2 grades above a C+. Probably 1, at B-. If there is indeed a cap at C+ for guards, then ignore this first gripe. Jrue could be bumped to a C. 3 seasons with 5+ rpg, 4 more between 4.5 and 5, and despite averaging a solid but nothing special 4 rpg in his career, he also averages 1 offensive board per game too for his career. For comparison sake, Westbrook averages 3.9 rpg for his career but just 0.7 more orpg than Jrue.

I'd argue Rajon Rondo's inside scoring should be higher, and maybe outside lower depending on how his FT performance could maybe suffer too much

May 9, 2024 10:58:41 GMT -5 bosoxlover12 said:

Eddie House should be an A- outside scorer

Fine with this.

May 10, 2024 21:53:49 GMT -5 nickmolyvia said:

-Inside Scoring: I think Wall and Francis could be elevated to B+. High-flying slashers, i would say both are on par with Gilbert finishing wise. Steph is also easily at a B, and i could even argue for B+. His percentages are outrageous. 65% within 3 feet of the basket for his career, with rim finishing being 2nd only to 3s when it comes to most common shot locations, even higher than the midrange. 

-Outside Scoring:
Steph to an A. I don't think i have to elaborate on that one. I could argue for Ty Lawson being a B (no bias). 37% from 3 during his 5 year peak, on 3 attempts a game. Solid splits between 10-16 (45%) and 16-3pt (38) for his career, splits that are 5 points above league average and league average (relative to era) respectively. Him being on the same tier as Westbrook (who i love) and Rubio, who were both below average shooters from deep and league average in both midrange areas doesn't feel right. Also, Marbury being in the same tier as Rondo as shooters is insane. Marbury wasn't anything special from deep (33% for his career on 4 attempts a game) but we are comparing him to a guy who at his 4 year peak was averaging 23% from 3 on less than 1 attempt a game. Marbury's midrange splits are league average (especially relative to era) whilst Rondo's were worse than Marbury's, almost an entire decade after Marbury's peak. Since i don't think Marbury warrants a B- with his splits i think Rondo should be toned down to C, especially when someone like Shaun Livingston is there, who maybe did not shoot 3s at all but averaged an insane 45% from 10-16 and a solid 39% from 16-3pt.

-Handling:
I think Nash should go back to A+. I do believe CP3 is a better facilitator than him but i think he is closer to CP3 than any player in the A tier is to Nash. Felton should also be B+ imo. 3 seasons with 7+ apg (one of them being an 8 apg season), with a relatively low amount of turnovers for a player with so many touches a game. He has had multiple seasons with a 2+ ast/tov ratio which is usually the cut off for great playmakers. Felton has 4 seasons of at least 5.5 apg with at least a 2.5 ast/tov ratio. That's borderline elite. I know that his speed is what is keeping him below B+ but i think a boost is necessary. Lou Williams in the same tier as Mo Williams is also bothering me. By taking a look at the rest of the players in said tier i think Mo is the one that should be bumped. 

-Defense:
Beverley at an A-, next to guys like CP3, Rondo and Jrue doesn't sit right with me. Same goes for Lowry but in a smaller scale. I think Beverley is a reputation defender. Good, great even, but doesn't touch guys like Jrue imo. I can be lenient and accept a B+ for him although i would personally place him at B. I think a Lowry downgrade is also needed, but a smaller one, just at B+. Eric Bledsoe should also be downgraded imo. Solid defender for his career but his defensive peak didn't correlate with his actual playing peak. If guys like Blake Griffin get "penalized" for also changing player profiles through the years then I think the same should be done with Bledsoe. At his Phoenix peak i really don't think that he was a B+ worthy defender. Also, Iverson played the passing lanes well and Rose was a dynamic defender but I don't think they should be in the same tier with guys like Kirk Hinrich and mostly Chauncey Billups and John Wall. I don't mind either a downgrade for the former 2 or a bump for the latter 3, i just know that they shouldn't be in the same tier as defenders imo.

-Rebounding:
I don't know the caps for rebounding relative to height. I assume the cap is C+ or else Westbrook should be 1 or 2 grades above a C+. Probably 1, at B-. If there is indeed a cap at C+ for guards, then ignore this first gripe. Jrue could be bumped to a C. 3 seasons with 5+ rpg, 4 more between 4.5 and 5, and despite averaging a solid but nothing special 4 rpg in his career, he also averages 1 offensive board per game too for his career. For comparison sake, Westbrook averages 3.9 rpg for his career but just 0.7 more orpg than Jrue.

INSIDE SCORING

- John Wall / Steve Francis: I don't agree with this. I actually think Arenas being in a tier above is pretty clear as day, here. Both Wall and Francis have great athleticism, but I don't think the stats match up with your take.
- Stephen Curry: He has the fourth best Inside Scoring rating of all these players here, he just doesn't have the Jumping rating to get him up higher.

OUTSIDE SCORING

- Stephen Curry: I understand the argument, it's just the generator. Still considering it.
- Ty Lawson: He's right on the fringe, but I think B- OUT is fair.
- Rajon Rondo: I do think you're selectively picking his worst three-point shooting period. I'm fine lowing him to a very high C OUT grade, but I think it should be higher than you seem to.

HANDLING

- Steve Nash: Nash's HAN grade going down was just part of a systematic change that lowered a lot of the Passing ratings of the top guys. Even if I bumped Nash to the absolute top of what I think is fair, he'd still be an A HAN grade.
- Raymond Felton: He's right on the fringe but I don't have a reason to bump him higher. B HAN seems fine.
- Mo Williams: I'll give him a modest boost but I think the B- HAN grade is fair.

DEFENSE

- Patrick Beverley: He definitely could be a bit overrated, but he still has to be one of the best point guards defensively, especially when you consider he was a good defensive playmaker to boot.
- Kyle Lowry: Fine with this.
- Eric Bledsoe: I actually think the defensive peak you're talking about is what's being considered his peak here.
- Allen Iverson / Derrick Rose: Iverson is such an amazing steals guy and that's always going to make his DEF grade higher than it should be. With that said, I can get him to B- DEF. For Derrick Rose, fine with that too.

REBOUNDING

- Russell Westbrook: This is another case where him only being a great rebounder on one side is going to hurt his grade. He's just outside the top 30 among all players in the file in Defensive Rebounding as a point guard.
- Jrue Holiday: I don't really see this one.

Don’t know that I have stats to grab but I’d argue Jrue’s inside peak should be a B-, he certainly is crafty and the strong base and elite balance all contribute here

May 12, 2024 0:51:33 GMT -5 Icarus said:

I'd argue Rajon Rondo's inside scoring should be higher, and maybe outside lower depending on how his FT performance could maybe suffer too much

I lowered his OUT grade above. I think his INS grade is fine.

May 13, 2024 14:24:28 GMT -5 Icarus said:

Don’t know that I have stats to grab but I’d argue Jrue’s inside peak should be a B-, he certainly is crafty and the strong base and elite balance all contribute here

He's right on the fringe to go up. I'm going to leave him because his OUT grade is also maxed out for what I think he was as a player, but he's right there.