Base File Peak Grades: Small Forwards

A few weeks ago, I dumped a ton of players ratings into Discord with the intent of getting some feedback. The response was tepid at best, so I wanted to try to give you those same ratings in a different format to see if the sheer amount of players on the index overwhelmed those who may have been willing to gripe the file. I'm going to do this position by position and rating by rating, with the idea being simply to make it easier to eyeball things that you find off. As with all gripes, suggesting what should be changed is more helpful than simply making an observation and leaving me to figure out what you think should be updated.

As I mentioned in Discord, this originally started as a random selection of players from 1996-2008. I've since added a few more players from these drafts, as well as added more players from the 2009 and 2010 drafts. All of these ratings are the players as they were considered in their peaks; do not worry about a "base year".

Any +1's or -1's noted are differences from the original ratings posted on Discord.

One last note, the sorting within grades is alphabetical and is not attempting to rank players.

Thanks to those of you who end up helping!

Inside Scoring

A+:
---------------
A:
LeBron James
---------------
A-:
Carmelo Anthony
---------------
B+:
Corey Maggette
Kevin Durant
Paul George (NEW)
---------------
B:
Antawn Jamison
Bonzi Wells
Danny Granger
Desmond Mason
Gerald Wallace
Paul Pierce (-1)
Richard Jefferson
Ron Artest
Rudy Gay
Shareef Abdur-Rahim
Shawn Marion
---------------
B-:
Al Harrington
Andrei Kirilenko
Antoine Walker (-1)
Caron Butler
Darius Miles
Gordon Hayward (NEW)
Jeff Green
Lamar Odom
Luol Deng
Matt Harpring (NEW)
Michael Beasley (-1)
Rashard Lewis
Ruben Patterson (NEW)
Stephen Jackson
---------------
C+:
Ansu Sesay (NEW)
Bobby Simmons
Boris Diaw
C.J. Miles
Corey Brewer (-1)
Damien Wilkins (NEW)
Danilo Gallinari
Dante Cunningham (NEW)
Darvin Ham
DeMarre Carroll (NEW)
Devean George
Dorell Wright
Eddie Robinson (NEW)
Eduardo Najera
Evan Turner (NEW)
Gary Forbes (NEW)
Hedo Turkoglu
Jamario Moon
James Johnson (NEW)
James Posey
Jonathan Bender
Julian Wright
Keith Van Horn
Marvin Williams
Matt Barnes
Mickael Pietrus
Mike Dunleavy Jr.
Mike Miller
Nicolas Batum
Omri Casspi (NEW)
Peja Stojakovic
Qyntel Woods
Ronnie Brewer
Roshown McLeod
Shane Battier
Tim Thomas
Trevor Ariza
Wally Szczerbiak
Wilson Chandler
---------------
C:
Adam Morrison
Al-Farouq Aminu (NEW)
Anthony Tolliver
Bostjan Nachbar (NEW)
Brian Cardinal
Brian Scalabrine
DerMarr Johnson (NEW)
Donte Greene
James Jones
Jared Dudley
Jared Jeffries
Jarvis Hayes (-1)
Joe Ingles (NEW)
Jumaine Jones
Luc Mbah a Moute (-1)
Luke Walton
P.J. Tucker
Pat Garrity
Quincy Pondexter (NEW)
Rodney Carney
Ryan Bowen
Scott Padgett
Shawne Williams (-1)
Steve Novak
Tremaine Fowlkes
Vladimir Radmanovic
Walter McCarty
Wesley Johnson (NEW)
Yakhouba Diawara
---------------
C-:
---------------
D+:
---------------
D:
---------------
D-:
---------------
F+:
---------------
F:
---------------
F-:

Outside Scoring

A+:
---------------
A:
---------------
A-:
Kevin Durant
Steve Novak
---------------
B+:
Danilo Gallinari
Mike Miller
Pat Garrity
Paul George (NEW)
Peja Stojakovic
Rashard Lewis
Wally Szczerbiak
---------------
B:
Al Harrington
Bobby Simmons
C.J. Miles
Carmelo Anthony (-1)
Danny Granger
Gordon Hayward (NEW)
Hedo Turkoglu
James Jones (-1)
Jared Dudley (-1)
Joe Ingles (NEW)
Mike Dunleavy Jr.
Nicolas Batum
Paul Pierce
Richard Jefferson
Shane Battier
Shawn Marion (+1)
Vladimir Radmanovic
---------------
B-:
Anthony Tolliver (-1)
Bostjan Nachbar (NEW)
Brian Cardinal (-1)
Caron Butler
DeMarre Carroll (NEW)
Dorell Wright
Jamario Moon
James Posey
Jarvis Hayes
Jumaine Jones
Keith Van Horn
LeBron James
Luol Deng
Marvin Williams (-1)
Matt Barnes
Michael Beasley
Mickael Pietrus
Omri Casspi (NEW)
P.J. Tucker
Quincy Pondexter (NEW)
Rudy Gay
Scott Padgett (-1)
Shawne Williams
Stephen Jackson
Tim Thomas
Trevor Ariza (-1)
Wilson Chandler
---------------
C+:
Adam Morrison
Al-Farouq Aminu (NEW)
Andrei Kirilenko
Antawn Jamison
Antoine Walker
Bonzi Wells
Boris Diaw (-1)
Brian Scalabrine
Corey Brewer
Corey Maggette
Damien Wilkins (NEW)
Dante Cunningham (NEW)
DerMarr Johnson (NEW)
Devean George
Donte Greene
Eduardo Najera
Evan Turner (NEW)
Gary Forbes (NEW)
Gerald Wallace
James Johnson (NEW)
Jeff Green (-1)
Jonathan Bender
Lamar Odom
Luc Mbah a Moute
Luke Walton
Matt Harpring (NEW)
Qyntel Woods
Rodney Carney
Ron Artest
Walter McCarty (-1)
Wesley Johnson (NEW)
Yakhouba Diawara
---------------
C:
Ansu Sesay (NEW)
Desmond Mason
Eddie Robinson (NEW)
Jared Jeffries
Julian Wright
Ronnie Brewer
Shareef Abdur-Rahim
---------------
C-:
Darius Miles
Darvin Ham (-1)
Roshown McLeod
Ruben Patterson (NEW)
Ryan Bowen
Tremaine Fowlkes
---------------
D+:
---------------
D:
---------------
D-:
---------------
F+:
---------------
F:
---------------
F-:

Handling

A+:
---------------
A:
---------------
A-:
LeBron James
---------------
B+:
---------------
B:
---------------
B-:
---------------
C+:
Evan Turner (NEW)
Joe Ingles (NEW)
Kevin Durant
Nicolas Batum
---------------
C:
Andrei Kirilenko
Antoine Walker
Bonzi Wells
Boris Diaw
Carmelo Anthony
Caron Butler
Gordon Hayward (NEW)
Hedo Turkoglu
James Johnson (NEW)
Lamar Odom
Luke Walton
Mike Dunleavy Jr. (+1)
Mike Miller
Paul George (NEW)
Paul Pierce
Richard Jefferson (+1)
Ron Artest
Ronnie Brewer (+1)
Rudy Gay (+1)
Stephen Jackson
Trevor Ariza (+1)
Wally Szczerbiak (+1)
---------------
C-:
Adam Morrison
Al Harrington (+1)
Antawn Jamison (+1)
Bobby Simmons
C.J. Miles
Corey Brewer
Corey Maggette
Damien Wilkins (NEW)
Danilo Gallinari
Danny Granger
Darius Miles (+1)
DeMarre Carroll (NEW)
Desmond Mason
Devean George (+1)
Dorell Wright
Gary Forbes (NEW)
Gerald Wallace
Jamario Moon
James Posey
Jared Dudley
Jared Jeffries (+1)
Jarvis Hayes (+1)
Jeff Green (+1)
Luol Deng
Marvin Williams (+1)
Matt Barnes
P.J. Tucker (+1)
Peja Stojakovic
Quincy Pondexter (NEW)
Rashard Lewis
Ruben Patterson (NEW)
Shane Battier
Shareef Abdur-Rahim
Shawn Marion
Wilson Chandler
Yakhouba Diawara (+1)
---------------
D+:
Al-Farouq Aminu (NEW)
Ansu Sesay (NEW)
Anthony Tolliver (+1)
Bostjan Nachbar (NEW)
Brian Cardinal (-1)
Brian Scalabrine
Dante Cunningham (NEW)
DerMarr Johnson (NEW)
Eddie Robinson (NEW)
Eduardo Najera (+1)
James Jones
Julian Wright
Jumaine Jones (+1)
Keith Van Horn (+1)
Matt Harpring (NEW)
Michael Beasley
Omri Casspi (NEW)
Pat Garrity (+1)
Qyntel Woods (+1)
Roshown McLeod
Scott Padgett
Shawne Williams (+1)
Tim Thomas (-1)
Tremaine Fowlkes
Vladimir Radmanovic
Walter McCarty
Wesley Johnson (NEW)
---------------
D:
Darvin Ham
Donte Greene (+1)
Jonathan Bender
Luc Mbah a Moute
Mickael Pietrus
Rodney Carney
Ryan Bowen
Steve Novak
---------------
D-:
---------------
F+:
---------------
F:
---------------
F-:

Defense

A+:
---------------
A:
Andrei Kirilenko
LeBron James
Ron Artest
Shawn Marion
---------------
A-:
Gerald Wallace
Kevin Durant
Paul George (NEW)
Shane Battier
---------------
B+:
James Posey
Luol Deng (-1)
Matt Barnes
Nicolas Batum
P.J. Tucker
Paul Pierce (-1)
Ronnie Brewer (+1)
Ruben Patterson (NEW)
Trevor Ariza (+1)
---------------
B:
Al-Farouq Aminu (NEW)
Bonzi Wells
Corey Brewer
Danny Granger
Dante Cunningham (NEW)
DeMarre Carroll (NEW)
James Johnson (NEW)
Jared Dudley
Jared Jeffries (+1)
Luc Mbah a Moute
Mickael Pietrus
Rashard Lewis (+1)
Stephen Jackson
---------------
B-:
Al Harrington (+1)
Antawn Jamison
Antoine Walker
Boris Diaw
Carmelo Anthony (-1)
Caron Butler (-1)
Darius Miles (+1)
Darvin Ham
Eduardo Najera
Gordon Hayward (NEW)
Hedo Turkoglu
Jamario Moon (+1)
Jeff Green (-1)
Keith Van Horn (+1)
Lamar Odom
Richard Jefferson (-1)
Rudy Gay (-1)
Ryan Bowen
Shareef Abdur-Rahim
Tim Thomas
Wesley Johnson (NEW)
---------------
C+:
Ansu Sesay (NEW)
Bobby Simmons (+1)
Brian Cardinal
C.J. Miles (+1)
Corey Maggette (-1)
Damien Wilkins (NEW)
Danilo Gallinari (-1)
DerMarr Johnson (NEW)
Desmond Mason
Devean George
Donte Greene (+1)
Dorell Wright
Eddie Robinson (NEW)
Evan Turner (NEW)
James Jones
Joe Ingles (NEW)
Jonathan Bender
Julian Wright (-1)
Jumaine Jones
Luke Walton
Marvin Williams
Matt Harpring (NEW)
Michael Beasley
Mike Dunleavy Jr.
Mike Miller
Omri Casspi (NEW)
Peja Stojakovic
Quincy Pondexter (NEW)
Rodney Carney
Scott Padgett (+1)
Shawne Williams
Vladimir Radmanovic
Wally Szczerbiak (+1)
Walter McCarty
Wilson Chandler
---------------
C:
Anthony Tolliver
Bostjan Nachbar (NEW)
Brian Scalabrine
Gary Forbes (NEW)
Jarvis Hayes
Pat Garrity
Qyntel Woods (-1)
Roshown McLeod
Tremaine Fowlkes
Yakhouba Diawara
---------------
C-:
Adam Morrison (-1)
Steve Novak (-1)
---------------
D+:
---------------
D:
---------------
D-:
---------------
F+:
---------------
F:
---------------
F-:

Rebounding

A+:
---------------
A:
---------------
A-:
---------------
B+:
---------------
B:
---------------
B-:
Shawn Marion
---------------
C+:
Al-Farouq Aminu (NEW)
Andrei Kirilenko
Antawn Jamison
Antoine Walker
Keith Van Horn
Lamar Odom
LeBron James (+1)
Luc Mbah a Moute
Scott Padgett
Shareef Abdur-Rahim
---------------
C:
Al Harrington
Ansu Sesay (NEW)
Anthony Tolliver
Bobby Simmons
Bonzi Wells
Boris Diaw
Brian Cardinal
Brian Scalabrine
Carmelo Anthony
Caron Butler
Corey Maggette
Danilo Gallinari
Danny Granger
Dante Cunningham (NEW)
Darius Miles
Darvin Ham (-1)
DeMarre Carroll (NEW)
Desmond Mason
Devean George
Dorell Wright
Eduardo Najera
Evan Turner (NEW)
Gerald Wallace
Gordon Hayward (NEW)
Hedo Turkoglu
Jamario Moon
James Johnson (NEW)
James Posey
Jared Dudley
Jared Jeffries
Jeff Green
Jonathan Bender
Julian Wright
Jumaine Jones
Kevin Durant
Luke Walton
Luol Deng
Marvin Williams
Matt Barnes
Matt Harpring (NEW)
Michael Beasley (-1)
Mickael Pietrus
Mike Dunleavy Jr.
Mike Miller
Nicolas Batum
Omri Casspi (NEW)
P.J. Tucker
Paul George (NEW)
Paul Pierce
Peja Stojakovic
Qyntel Woods
Rashard Lewis
Richard Jefferson
Ron Artest
Ruben Patterson (NEW)
Rudy Gay
Ryan Bowen
Shane Battier
Shawne Williams
Tim Thomas
Tremaine Fowlkes
Trevor Ariza
Vladimir Radmanovic
Wally Szczerbiak (+1)
Walter McCarty
Wilson Chandler
---------------
C-:
Adam Morrison
Bostjan Nachbar (NEW)
C.J. Miles
Corey Brewer
Damien Wilkins (NEW)
DerMarr Johnson (NEW)
Donte Greene
Eddie Robinson (NEW)
Gary Forbes (NEW)
James Jones
Jarvis Hayes
Joe Ingles (NEW)
Pat Garrity
Quincy Pondexter (NEW)
Rodney Carney
Ronnie Brewer
Roshown McLeod
Stephen Jackson
Steve Novak
Wesley Johnson (NEW)
---------------
D+:
Yakhouba Diawara
---------------
D:
---------------
D-:
---------------
F+:
---------------
F:
---------------
F-:

Would lower Paul George's inside scoring a tier. I'd also raise Odom's a tier. I'd raise Paul George's outside scoring a tier. He's one of the greatest long range shooters ever. I feel like RJeff's outside scoring is a tier too high. Evan Turner, KD and PG all have a fair case to be in the B- tier they were fine secondary handlers. I'd also bump Hedo up a tier in handling as his versatility was a big selling point and that was playing on ball. In regards to defense I'd drop Pierce a tier or two honestly. I think Ariza and Mbah Moute have cases to be bumped up a tier defensively.

I feel like Handling wise Lamar Odom, Boris Diaw and PG could all boost up a spot to be there with ET, Ingles, Batum.

Apr 16, 2024 17:08:52 GMT -5 tyo said:

Would lower Paul George's inside scoring a tier. I'd also raise Odom's a tier. I'd raise Paul George's outside scoring a tier. He's one of the greatest long range shooters ever. I feel like RJeff's outside scoring is a tier too high. Evan Turner, KD and PG all have a fair case to be in the B- tier they were fine secondary handlers. I'd also bump Hedo up a tier in handling as his versatility was a big selling point and that was playing on ball. In regards to defense I'd drop Pierce a tier or two honestly. I think Ariza and Mbah Moute have cases to be bumped up a tier defensively.

- Paul George: I think you're underestimating Paul George's paint scoring abilities. Getting to your later point as well about his OUT grade, I like B+ B+ scoring for him more than B A- splits. His OUT grade is right near the fringe, so if I end up doing a wide-scale boost to OUT ratings, he might go up with that.
- Lamar Odom: I actually disagree with this one; he was never a scorer. The late 2000's Lakers put him in his optimal role. Since he's a hybrid forward, I'll also invoke the Power Forwards here:

B:
Dirk Nowitzki
Elton Brand
Kenyon Martin
Kevin Love
LaMarcus Aldridge
Pau Gasol
Paul Millsap
---------------
B-:
Andrea Bargnani
Carl Landry
David West
Drew Gooden
Hakim Warrick
J.J. Hickson
Malik Rose
Serge Ibaka
Stromile Swift (-1)
Thaddeus Young
Tyrus Thomas
Zach Randolph

I think his INS grade fits much better with those B- PF's than those in the B.

- Richard Jefferson: He's right on the drop fringe. I think the overall body of work here, including his later career where he improved significantly, is enough to keep him at B OUT.
- Evan Turner / Kevin Durant / Paul George: Outside of LeBron, Turner and Durant are the highest two, but they're still secondary playmakers to me. B- HAN or higher is starting to get into the range of a primary ball handler... keep in mind that Passing is the only rating that really matters for this grade. I gave Paul George a bump based on the playmaking he's shown in the last few seasons, but I still don't think he should be in the discussion with Durant and Turner.
- Hedo Turkoglu: I've upped him so he's right on the fringe for an increase. But I still don't think he's quite on the level as those in the tier ahead. His lack of Quickness is probably the differentiator here.
- Paul Pierce: Good call. Definitely did not belong on the same level as those other guys in the A- DEF tier.
- Trevor Ariza: We're in agreement here. I actually already bumped him to B+ DEF, but I've updated the post to reflect that now.
- Luc Mbah a Moute: I'm fine with him at B DEF.

Thanks for the gripes.

Apr 18, 2024 17:34:30 GMT -5 stunna said:

I feel like Handling wise Lamar Odom, Boris Diaw and PG could all boost up a spot to be there with ET, Ingles, Batum.

Already addressed Paul George's HAN grade above. With Odom and Diaw, given that they're hybrid forwards, I think the C HAN grade is fine for both.

I will keep it very short because the page crashed mid griping and i can't be asked to rewrite every single point. If you want me to elaborate on anything lmk.

-Inside scoring:
Carmelo to a B+.

-Outside scoring:
Al Harrington to a B, Bostjan Nachbar to a B.

-Handling:
Boris Diaw to a C+.

-Defense:
P.J. Tucker to a B+, KD to a B+ (if not B), Al-Farouq Aminu to a B+, Boris Diaw to a B OR Carmelo to a C+.

-Rebounding:
Lebron to a C+, Gerald Wallace to a C+.

May 10, 2024 16:09:34 GMT -5 nickmolyvia said:

I will keep it very short because the page crashed mid griping and i can't be asked to rewrite every single point. If you want me to elaborate on anything lmk.

-Inside scoring:
Carmelo to a B+.

-Outside scoring:
Al Harrington to a B, Bostjan Nachbar to a B.

-Handling:
Boris Diaw to a C+.

-Defense:
P.J. Tucker to a B+, KD to a B+ (if not B), Al-Farouq Aminu to a B+, Boris Diaw to a B OR Carmelo to a C+.

-Rebounding:
Lebron to a C+, Gerald Wallace to a C+.

INSIDE SCORING

- Carmelo Anthony: This is one I'd like you to expand upon, if possible. For me, he's certainly a good enough scorer to be at an A- INS grade, especially considering high Strength and Jumping ratings.

OUTSIDE SCORING

- Al Harrington: I'm fine upping him, he was a B OUT grade originally and I lowered him down, so I'll revert that.
- Bostjan Nachbar: Not seeing this one.

HANDLING

- Boris Diaw: Already addressed this.

DEFENSE

- P.J. Tucker: I moved him to A- DEF from B+ DEF, but I'll lower him back down to right below the fringe.
- Kevin Durant: I don't think he's the greatest defender, but he's good enough and he has good Stealing/Blocking ratings (very underrated defensive playmaker). I'd have to hear a good argument to drop him, but I'm open to it.
- Al-Farouq Aminu: Should he really be in the same tier as guys like P.J. Tucker?
- Boris Diaw / Carmelo Anthony: I'm fine with dropping Melo to C+ DEF.

REBOUNDING

- LeBron James: This is fair.
- Gerald Wallace: I know he averaged 10 RPG in one season and I feel like this gripe comes up in every league we've done because of that. First of all, he played 41 MPG that season, so it's an inflated number. Also, as I've mentioned before, I'm looking at three-year peaks. Per 36 minutes, his best three-year stretch rebounding was 8 rebounds per 36 (good number for a SF, don't get me wrong). He's very close to the fringe, but I'm not sure I can get there.

I see PG has been griped heavily but I’d push for a bump in his handle rating. Both passing and ball handling is elite for his size.

May 13, 2024 14:31:44 GMT -5 Icarus said:

I see PG has been griped heavily but I’d push for a bump in his handle rating. Both passing and ball handling is elite for his size.

See, I wouldn't really call him an elite passer for his size (LeBron spoils us in that regard, sure). He's definitely improved as his career has gone on and had a few seasons with the Clippers where he was over 5 assists per game, but I think he's in the proper tier here.