Base File Peak Grades: Power Forwards

A few weeks ago, I dumped a ton of players ratings into Discord with the intent of getting some feedback. The response was tepid at best, so I wanted to try to give you those same ratings in a different format to see if the sheer amount of players on the index overwhelmed those who may have been willing to gripe the file. I'm going to do this position by position and rating by rating, with the idea being simply to make it easier to eyeball things that you find off. As with all gripes, suggesting what should be changed is more helpful than simply making an observation and leaving me to figure out what you think should be updated.

As I mentioned in Discord, this originally started as a random selection of players from 1996-2008. I've since added a few more players from these drafts, as well as added more players from the 2009 and 2010 drafts. All of these ratings are the players as they were considered in their peaks; do not worry about a "base year".

Any +1's or -1's noted are differences from the original ratings posted on Discord.

One last note, the sorting within grades is alphabetical and is not attempting to rank players.

Thanks to those of you who end up helping!

Inside Scoring

A+:
---------------
A:
---------------
A-:
Amar'e Stoudemire
Blake Griffin (NEW)
Tim Duncan (+1)
---------------
B+:
Carlos Boozer
Chris Bosh
Jermaine O'Neal
Josh Smith
---------------
B:
Dirk Nowitzki
Elton Brand
Kenyon Martin
Kevin Love
LaMarcus Aldridge
Pau Gasol
Paul Millsap
Zach Randolph (+1)
---------------
B-:
Andrea Bargnani
Carl Landry
David West
Drew Gooden
Hakim Warrick
J.J. Hickson
Luis Scola (+1)
Malik Rose
Serge Ibaka
Stromile Swift (-1)
Thaddeus Young
Tyrus Thomas
---------------
C+:
Andray Blatche
Austin Croshere
Charlie Villanueva
Craig Smith
Darius Songaila
Ed Davis (NEW)
Glen Davis
Jason Maxiell
Jerome Moiso (NEW)
Jerome Williams
Kenny Thomas
Kris Humphries
Kwame Brown
Lee Nailon
Leon Powe
Maceo Baston
Marcus Fizer
Maurice Taylor
Patrick Patterson (NEW)
Renaldo Balkman
Samaki Walker (NEW)
Slava Medvedenko (NEW)
Taj Gibson (NEW)
Trevor Booker (NEW)
Tyler Hansbrough (NEW)
Udonis Haslem
---------------
C:
Brian Cook
Channing Frye
Chuck Hayes
Ersan Ilyasova
Jason Smith
Josh Powell
Mark Madsen
Matt Bonner
Michael Bradley
Nemanja Bjelica (NEW)
Nick Collison
Reggie Evans
Ryan Anderson
Samardo Samuels (NEW)
Shelden Williams
Yi Jianlian
---------------
C-:
---------------
D+:
---------------
D:
---------------
D-:
---------------
F+:
---------------
F:
---------------
F-:

Outside Scoring

A+:
---------------
A:
---------------
A-:
Dirk Nowitzki
---------------
B+:
Channing Frye
Matt Bonner (-1)
Ryan Anderson
---------------
B:
Andrea Bargnani
Brian Cook (-1)
Charlie Villanueva (+1)
Ersan Ilyasova
Kevin Love
Nemanja Bjelica (NEW)
Patrick Patterson (NEW)
Serge Ibaka
---------------
B-:
Austin Croshere
Chris Bosh
Jason Smith
LaMarcus Aldridge
---------------
C+:
Blake Griffin (NEW)
Paul Millsap (-1)
Thaddeus Young
Yi Jianlian
---------------
C:
Amar'e Stoudemire
Darius Songaila
David West
Drew Gooden
Elton Brand
Jermaine O'Neal (+1)
Josh Powell
Josh Smith
Kris Humphries
Luis Scola
Maceo Baston
Pau Gasol
Taj Gibson (NEW)
Tim Duncan
Trevor Booker (NEW)
Udonis Haslem (+1)
Zach Randolph
---------------
C-:
Andray Blatche
Carl Landry
Carlos Boozer
Chuck Hayes
Craig Smith
Ed Davis (NEW)
Glen Davis
Hakim Warrick
Jason Maxiell
Jerome Williams
Kenny Thomas (-1)
Kenyon Martin
Kwame Brown
Lee Nailon
Leon Powe
Malik Rose
Marcus Fizer (-1)
Maurice Taylor
Nick Collison (-1)
Reggie Evans
Renaldo Balkman
Samaki Walker (NEW)
Shelden Williams
Slava Medvedenko (NEW)
Stromile Swift
Tyler Hansbrough (NEW)
Tyrus Thomas
---------------
D+:
J.J. Hickson (-1)
Jerome Moiso (NEW)
Mark Madsen (-1)
Michael Bradley
Samardo Samuels (NEW)
---------------
D:
---------------
D-:
---------------
F+:
---------------
F:
---------------
F-:

Handling

A+:
---------------
A:
---------------
A-:
---------------
B+:
---------------
B:
---------------
B-:
---------------
C+:
Blake Griffin (NEW)
---------------
C:
David West
Dirk Nowitzki
Josh Smith
Kevin Love
Pau Gasol
Tim Duncan
---------------
C-:
Carlos Boozer
Chris Bosh
Chuck Hayes
Elton Brand
Jermaine O'Neal
Kenyon Martin
LaMarcus Aldridge
Luis Scola
Matt Bonner
Nemanja Bjelica (NEW)
Patrick Patterson (NEW)
Paul Millsap
Thaddeus Young (-1)
Zach Randolph
---------------
D+:
Amar'e Stoudemire (+1)
Andray Blatche
Austin Croshere
Channing Frye (+1)
Darius Songaila
Ersan Ilyasova
Kenny Thomas
Lee Nailon (+1)
Maurice Taylor (+1)
Ryan Anderson (+1)
Taj Gibson (NEW)
Trevor Booker (NEW)
---------------
D:
Andrea Bargnani
Brian Cook (-1)
Carl Landry (+1)
Charlie Villanueva
Craig Smith
Drew Gooden (-1)
Ed Davis (NEW)
Glen Davis
Hakim Warrick
J.J. Hickson
Jason Smith
Jerome Williams
Josh Powell
Kris Humphries (+1)
Kwame Brown
Malik Rose
Marcus Fizer
Mark Madsen
Michael Bradley
Nick Collison (-1)
Renaldo Balkman
Samaki Walker (NEW)
Serge Ibaka
Slava Medvedenko (NEW)
Tyler Hansbrough (NEW)
Tyrus Thomas
Udonis Haslem
---------------
D-:
Jason Maxiell
Jerome Moiso (NEW)
Leon Powe
Maceo Baston
Reggie Evans
Shelden Williams (+1)
Stromile Swift
Yi Jianlian
---------------
F+:
Samardo Samuels (NEW)
---------------
F:
---------------
F-:

Defense

A+:
---------------
A:
Tim Duncan
---------------
A-:
Serge Ibaka
---------------
B+:
Chris Bosh (+1)
Elton Brand
Jermaine O'Neal
Josh Smith
Kenyon Martin
Pau Gasol (-1)
Paul Millsap
---------------
B:
David West
Dirk Nowitzki
Jason Maxiell
LaMarcus Aldridge
Taj Gibson (NEW)
Tyrus Thomas
---------------
B-:
Ed Davis (NEW)
Stromile Swift
Thaddeus Young
---------------
C+:
Amar'e Stoudemire (-2)
Andray Blatche (-1)
Blake Griffin (NEW)
Channing Frye
Chuck Hayes (-1)
Drew Gooden
Ersan Ilyasova
Glen Davis
J.J. Hickson
Jerome Moiso (NEW)
Jerome Williams (+1)
Kenny Thomas
Kevin Love
Kris Humphries
Kwame Brown
Leon Powe
Malik Rose (-1)
Nick Collison
Patrick Patterson (NEW)
Renaldo Balkman (-1)
Samaki Walker (NEW)
Trevor Booker (NEW)
Udonis Haslem
Zach Randolph
---------------
C:
Andrea Bargnani
Austin Croshere (-1)
Brian Cook
Carl Landry (-1)
Carlos Boozer (-1)
Charlie Villanueva
Craig Smith
Darius Songaila
Hakim Warrick
Jason Smith
Josh Powell
Lee Nailon
Luis Scola
Maceo Baston
Marcus Fizer
Mark Madsen
Matt Bonner
Maurice Taylor
Michael Bradley
Nemanja Bjelica (NEW)
Reggie Evans
Ryan Anderson
Samardo Samuels (NEW)
Shelden Williams (-1)
Slava Medvedenko (NEW)
Tyler Hansbrough (NEW)
Yi Jianlian
---------------
C-:
---------------
D+:
---------------
D:
---------------
D-:
---------------
F+:
---------------
F:
---------------
F-:

Rebounding

A+:
---------------
A:
Reggie Evans
---------------
A-:
Kevin Love
Tim Duncan
---------------
B+:
Carlos Boozer
Ed Davis (NEW)
J.J. Hickson
Kris Humphries
Zach Randolph
---------------
B:
Chuck Hayes
Drew Gooden
Elton Brand
Jermaine O'Neal
Jerome Williams (-2)
LaMarcus Aldridge
Leon Powe
Michael Bradley
Pau Gasol
---------------
B-:
Amar'e Stoudemire
Blake Griffin (NEW)
Chris Bosh
Ersan Ilyasova
Jason Maxiell
Jerome Moiso (NEW)
Luis Scola
Malik Rose (-1)
Paul Millsap
Samaki Walker (NEW)
Serge Ibaka
Shelden Williams
Taj Gibson (NEW)
Trevor Booker (NEW)
Tyler Hansbrough (NEW)
Udonis Haslem
---------------
C+:
Andray Blatche
Austin Croshere
Carl Landry
Craig Smith
David West
Dirk Nowitzki
Glen Davis
Josh Powell
Josh Smith
Kenny Thomas (-1)
Kenyon Martin
Kwame Brown
Mark Madsen
Nick Collison
Renaldo Balkman
Ryan Anderson
Slava Medvedenko (NEW)
Stromile Swift
Thaddeus Young
Tyrus Thomas
---------------
C:
Andrea Bargnani
Brian Cook
Channing Frye
Charlie Villanueva
Darius Songaila
Hakim Warrick
Jason Smith
Lee Nailon
Maceo Baston
Marcus Fizer
Matt Bonner
Maurice Taylor
Nemanja Bjelica (NEW)
Patrick Patterson (NEW)
Samardo Samuels (NEW)
Yi Jianlian
---------------
C-:
---------------
D+:
---------------
D:
---------------
D-:
---------------
F+:
---------------
F:
---------------
F-:

You got guys that could never be 26 ppg guys in their lives that are better scorers than Kevin Love, and that don’t sit right in my soul. Kevin Love needs a bump or a guy like CHRIS BOSH should be bumped down.

Don’t get me started on Pau

Pau was my guy but I don’t think that a guy with zero defensive accolades in his career should be rated that highly. B+ seems more reasonable imo

Apr 16, 2024 16:43:18 GMT -5 shellystrick4l said:

You got guys that could never be 26 ppg guys in their lives that are better scorers than Kevin Love, and that don’t sit right in my soul. Kevin Love needs a bump or a guy like CHRIS BOSH should be bumped down.

Don’t get me started on Pau

Just want to point out a couple things:

- I have the sense you're focusing in on the Inside Scoring grade, which should not be seen as a direct correlation to points per game. Chris Bosh is B+ B- scoring while Kevin Love is B B, so technically speaking, they are even in terms of scoring prowess. In fact, if I was only considering Bosh's Toronto peak, he'd be B+ C+, but I gave him an OUT grade boost based on his three-point improvement when he played in Miami.
- You seem to be looking at one of two career years (scoring-wise) with Love, when I typically look at three-year peaks for a player. Love's two 26 PPG seasons have an 18 PPG season sandwiched in between, albeit in just 18 games. I can make an exception for Love and look at a four-year peak which will drown out that 2012-13 lost season, and this will give him a slight boost in Inside Scoring.
- If you look at the numbers that I consider for the Inside Scoring rating during these peak seasons, they're almost identical per 100 possessions:

Player	Close FG	Close FGA	Close FG%	FTA	USG%
Bosh (2007-2010)	4.74	9.47	50.04%	11.72	27.74%
Love (2010-2014)	5.61	11.06	50.73%	10.71	27.10%

- If I took Bosh's Jumping rating down to where Kevin Love's is, Bosh would also have a B INS grade. Similarly, if I boosted Love's Jumping rating to Bosh's level, he'd move up to B+ INS.

Hope this helps to explain why Bosh is a tier higher.

Apr 17, 2024 13:47:50 GMT -5 kdogg said:

Pau was my guy but I don’t think that a guy with zero defensive accolades in his career should be rated that highly. B+ seems more reasonable imo

Agreed and updated.

-Inside Scoring:
I know that jumping plays a big role in the INS grade but one of the best post scorers of all time aka Tim Duncan should definitely be AT LEAST on the same level as someone like Amar'e Stoudemire who has an A- grade and above someone like Carlos Boozer who is at a B+. Pau and Dirk should also be at a B+ imo, especially Dirk, the post fade GOAT (unless fades are accounted for in outside scoring , then he is fine at B). Serge could maybe slide down a spot to C+ since in his 3 year peak (imo 2010-2015) he took most of his shots between the 16-3pt range, and in general, his main go-to spot was the midrange. I suggest swapping his grade with Luis Scola who was a pure post scorer, averaging 18 a game in his best season with most of his points coming from the post unlike Serge. C+ is a tad bit low for Scola imo. 

-Outside Scoring:
A slight bump to Ibaka at fringe B+ (don't know how close he is to it) would be appreciated since as i mentioned before, the way he got his points were from the midrange. I would mention later seasons where his 3pt shooting took a bump (still great in his last peak season in 2015 with 38% on more than 3 attempts a game) but those seasons aren't his peak imo or else he would be guaranteed B+. Also maybe a slight bump to Ilyasova, not at a B+ but fringe-ish, because he has 2 40+% seasons from 3 (45% and 44%) in his exact 3 year peak (2011-2014) on 2.5 attempts a game. 

-Defense: I think Bosh is a very underrated defender. Idk where you taking his peak so depending on the years you think are his peak I don't mind it. But i don't think that Miami Bosh was a worse defender than Ibaka. If your peak is Toronto then i can accept that since the bigger offenisve role/responsibilities made him preserve himself more on defense, although still great obviously. Stoudemire at B- is very generous. I think Drew Gooden who is at a C+ currently is a way better defender than him both peak wise and career wise. I would suggest a grade swap between the 2. 

-Rebounding:
I think it's insane to suggest that Reggie Evans (elite rebounder no doubt) was a better rebounder than peak Kevin Love who averaged 15 boards a game at his absolute peak (numbers wise) and the next season averaged 13 playing next to another great rebounder in Nikola Pekovic (who averaged 7 a game) and the season after that where he averaged 14 a game with Pekovic also having 9 a game. Love has 7 seasons with double digit boards and an 8th season in which he missed out for 0.2 boards a game. Same applies to Duncan. 13 straight seasons of averaging double digit boards, with 6 of them being when he played with David Robinson who was indeed old but still averaged 9.2 rebounds a game from 98 to 03. I am fine with them having the same grade as Evans but never being below him. Bosh being the same grade as Ibaka is also kinda strange since Bosh has 3 seasons with over 10 rpg whilst Ibaka doesn't even have a single season at 9+. One of the 2 has to change tiers, and by looking at the rest of the B- list, Bosh should be upgraded. Dirk at C+ is also very debatable. He wasn't the greatest rebounder by any means, especially for his height but he has 5 seasons of 9+ rpg with 2 of them (9.9 rpg) being barely below the double digit mark. I think B- is appropriate.

May 10, 2024 11:04:43 GMT -5 nickmolyvia said:

-Inside Scoring:
I know that jumping plays a big role in the INS grade but one of the best post scorers of all time aka Tim Duncan should definitely be AT LEAST on the same level as someone like Amar'e Stoudemire who has an A- grade and above someone like Carlos Boozer who is at a B+. Pau and Dirk should also be at a B+ imo, especially Dirk, the post fade GOAT (unless fades are accounted for in outside scoring , then he is fine at B). Serge could maybe slide down a spot to C+ since in his 3 year peak (imo 2010-2015) he took most of his shots between the 16-3pt range, and in general, his main go-to spot was the midrange. I suggest swapping his grade with Luis Scola who was a pure post scorer, averaging 18 a game in his best season with most of his points coming from the post unlike Serge. C+ is a tad bit low for Scola imo. 

-Outside Scoring:
A slight bump to Ibaka at fringe B+ (don't know how close he is to it) would be appreciated since as i mentioned before, the way he got his points were from the midrange. I would mention later seasons where his 3pt shooting took a bump (still great in his last peak season in 2015 with 38% on more than 3 attempts a game) but those seasons aren't his peak imo or else he would be guaranteed B+. Also maybe a slight bump to Ilyasova, not at a B+ but fringe-ish, because he has 2 40+% seasons from 3 (45% and 44%) in his exact 3 year peak (2011-2014) on 2.5 attempts a game. 

-Defense: I think Bosh is a very underrated defender. Idk where you taking his peak so depending on the years you think are his peak I don't mind it. But i don't think that Miami Bosh was a worse defender than Ibaka. If your peak is Toronto then i can accept that since the bigger offenisve role/responsibilities made him preserve himself more on defense, although still great obviously. Stoudemire at B- is very generous. I think Drew Gooden who is at a C+ currently is a way better defender than him both peak wise and career wise. I would suggest a grade swap between the 2. 

-Rebounding:
I think it's insane to suggest that Reggie Evans (elite rebounder no doubt) was a better rebounder than peak Kevin Love who averaged 15 boards a game at his absolute peak (numbers wise) and the next season averaged 13 playing next to another great rebounder in Nikola Pekovic (who averaged 7 a game) and the season after that where he averaged 14 a game with Pekovic also having 9 a game. Love has 7 seasons with double digit boards and an 8th season in which he missed out for 0.2 boards a game. Same applies to Duncan. 13 straight seasons of averaging double digit boards, with 6 of them being when he played with David Robinson who was indeed old but still averaged 9.2 rebounds a game from 98 to 03. I am fine with them having the same grade as Evans but never being below him. Bosh being the same grade as Ibaka is also kinda strange since Bosh has 3 seasons with over 10 rpg whilst Ibaka doesn't even have a single season at 9+. One of the 2 has to change tiers, and by looking at the rest of the B- list, Bosh should be upgraded. Dirk at C+ is also very debatable. He wasn't the greatest rebounder by any means, especially for his height but he has 5 seasons of 9+ rpg with 2 of them (9.9 rpg) being barely below the double digit mark. I think B- is appropriate.


Obv meant 2012-2015 for Ibaka's 3 year peak

May 10, 2024 11:04:43 GMT -5 nickmolyvia said:

-Inside Scoring:
I know that jumping plays a big role in the INS grade but one of the best post scorers of all time aka Tim Duncan should definitely be AT LEAST on the same level as someone like Amar'e Stoudemire who has an A- grade and above someone like Carlos Boozer who is at a B+. Pau and Dirk should also be at a B+ imo, especially Dirk, the post fade GOAT (unless fades are accounted for in outside scoring , then he is fine at B). Serge could maybe slide down a spot to C+ since in his 3 year peak (imo 2010-2015) he took most of his shots between the 16-3pt range, and in general, his main go-to spot was the midrange. I suggest swapping his grade with Luis Scola who was a pure post scorer, averaging 18 a game in his best season with most of his points coming from the post unlike Serge. C+ is a tad bit low for Scola imo. 

-Outside Scoring:
A slight bump to Ibaka at fringe B+ (don't know how close he is to it) would be appreciated since as i mentioned before, the way he got his points were from the midrange. I would mention later seasons where his 3pt shooting took a bump (still great in his last peak season in 2015 with 38% on more than 3 attempts a game) but those seasons aren't his peak imo or else he would be guaranteed B+. Also maybe a slight bump to Ilyasova, not at a B+ but fringe-ish, because he has 2 40+% seasons from 3 (45% and 44%) in his exact 3 year peak (2011-2014) on 2.5 attempts a game. 

-Defense: I think Bosh is a very underrated defender. Idk where you taking his peak so depending on the years you think are his peak I don't mind it. But i don't think that Miami Bosh was a worse defender than Ibaka. If your peak is Toronto then i can accept that since the bigger offenisve role/responsibilities made him preserve himself more on defense, although still great obviously. Stoudemire at B- is very generous. I think Drew Gooden who is at a C+ currently is a way better defender than him both peak wise and career wise. I would suggest a grade swap between the 2. 

-Rebounding:
I think it's insane to suggest that Reggie Evans (elite rebounder no doubt) was a better rebounder than peak Kevin Love who averaged 15 boards a game at his absolute peak (numbers wise) and the next season averaged 13 playing next to another great rebounder in Nikola Pekovic (who averaged 7 a game) and the season after that where he averaged 14 a game with Pekovic also having 9 a game. Love has 7 seasons with double digit boards and an 8th season in which he missed out for 0.2 boards a game. Same applies to Duncan. 13 straight seasons of averaging double digit boards, with 6 of them being when he played with David Robinson who was indeed old but still averaged 9.2 rebounds a game from 98 to 03. I am fine with them having the same grade as Evans but never being below him. Bosh being the same grade as Ibaka is also kinda strange since Bosh has 3 seasons with over 10 rpg whilst Ibaka doesn't even have a single season at 9+. One of the 2 has to change tiers, and by looking at the rest of the B- list, Bosh should be upgraded. Dirk at C+ is also very debatable. He wasn't the greatest rebounder by any means, especially for his height but he has 5 seasons of 9+ rpg with 2 of them (9.9 rpg) being barely below the double digit mark. I think B- is appropriate.

I'll try to address all these by section.

INSIDE SCORING

You already mentioned Jumping being a part of this rating, so keep that in mind with these responses.

- Tim Duncan: He's got the highest Inside Scoring rating of any power forward in the file. I'm very confident in that rating, but I'm fine giving him a slight Jumping boost to get him to an A- INS grade.
- Dirk Nowitzki: I think you sort of answered your own gripe here. A lot of those post fades you're referring to (anything outside of 10 feet, I think) is being counted as mid-range, where Dirk's rating is one of the highest in the file. Even still, his Inside Scoring rating is tied for the fifth-highest among all these power forwards.
- Serge Ibaka: I'll lower his Inside Scoring rating, but his Jumping is going to keep him at a B- INS grade.
- Luis Scola: Jumping was the only thing keeping him down; his Inside Scoring rating alone had him right on the fringe. I'll give him the slight Jumping boost to bump him up.

OUTSIDE SCORING

- Serge Ibaka: I absolutely do not agree that Ibaka should be in the class of Frye, Bonner, etc. as an outside shooter. His mid-range ability is among the best power forwards, but as a three-point shooter, I do not think he got to the level of the players in the B+ tier.
- Ersan Ilyasova: He's already right on the B+ fringe, I think.

DEFENSE

Before I start, just a general statement that sometimes the Stealing/Blocking ratings can inflate/deflate a guy here to look like a better defender than they should. They are weighted way too heavily in the formula.

- Chris Bosh: I think a B+ DEF grade is more than fair. I actually had him at a B before recently upping him (done before your post). Ibaka's rating is carried by his shot blocking ability.
- Amar'e Stoudemire: Fine with lowering him even further. C+ DEF seems right.
- Drew Gooden: Gooden was never a good shot blocker and that kills his grade here.

REBOUNDING

- Reggie Evans / Kevin Love: So I think the confusion here, and the reason for the discrepancy, is that Kevin Love's offensive rebounding numbers fell off a cliff once he developed his outside shot and started straying away from the basket more, which is obviously closer to the prime version we have here. While you could certainly make the argument that Love never "lost" the ability to offensive rebound; he simply just stopped going for as many, his rating has to be lowered here to get him to play like he should. I'll give him a slight boost, but I still think the A- REB grade is fair for prime Kevin Love. Early career Kevin Love would be an A, but with worse scoring ratings.
- Tim Duncan: Third-highest Defensive Rebounding rating among all the power forwards, he was just never an elite offensive rebounder (not sure if this was just the Spurs scheme or what, but the numbers just aren't there at any point in his career).
- Chris Bosh / Serge Ibaka: The offensive rebounding just isn't good enough for Bosh to go up a grade. If you look at the per 36 numbers in what are being considered their primes:

Player	OREB (Per 36)	DREB (Per 36)	REB (PER 36)
Bosh (2007-2010)	3.3	6.1	9.5
Ibaka (2011-2014)	2.7	6.9	9.7

Given this, I think the same tier is apt.

- Dirk Nowitzki: The problem here is that Dirk's Offensive Rebounding rating is actually the second lowest among all the power forwards, and the grade weights this equally with Defensive Rebounding. His Defensive Rebounding rating is in the top seven among all the power forwards.

May 11, 2024 13:07:07 GMT -5 CC06 said:

May 10, 2024 11:04:43 GMT -5 nickmolyvia said:

-Inside Scoring:
I know that jumping plays a big role in the INS grade but one of the best post scorers of all time aka Tim Duncan should definitely be AT LEAST on the same level as someone like Amar'e Stoudemire who has an A- grade and above someone like Carlos Boozer who is at a B+. Pau and Dirk should also be at a B+ imo, especially Dirk, the post fade GOAT (unless fades are accounted for in outside scoring , then he is fine at B). Serge could maybe slide down a spot to C+ since in his 3 year peak (imo 2010-2015) he took most of his shots between the 16-3pt range, and in general, his main go-to spot was the midrange. I suggest swapping his grade with Luis Scola who was a pure post scorer, averaging 18 a game in his best season with most of his points coming from the post unlike Serge. C+ is a tad bit low for Scola imo. 

-Outside Scoring:
A slight bump to Ibaka at fringe B+ (don't know how close he is to it) would be appreciated since as i mentioned before, the way he got his points were from the midrange. I would mention later seasons where his 3pt shooting took a bump (still great in his last peak season in 2015 with 38% on more than 3 attempts a game) but those seasons aren't his peak imo or else he would be guaranteed B+. Also maybe a slight bump to Ilyasova, not at a B+ but fringe-ish, because he has 2 40+% seasons from 3 (45% and 44%) in his exact 3 year peak (2011-2014) on 2.5 attempts a game. 

-Defense: I think Bosh is a very underrated defender. Idk where you taking his peak so depending on the years you think are his peak I don't mind it. But i don't think that Miami Bosh was a worse defender than Ibaka. If your peak is Toronto then i can accept that since the bigger offenisve role/responsibilities made him preserve himself more on defense, although still great obviously. Stoudemire at B- is very generous. I think Drew Gooden who is at a C+ currently is a way better defender than him both peak wise and career wise. I would suggest a grade swap between the 2. 

-Rebounding:
I think it's insane to suggest that Reggie Evans (elite rebounder no doubt) was a better rebounder than peak Kevin Love who averaged 15 boards a game at his absolute peak (numbers wise) and the next season averaged 13 playing next to another great rebounder in Nikola Pekovic (who averaged 7 a game) and the season after that where he averaged 14 a game with Pekovic also having 9 a game. Love has 7 seasons with double digit boards and an 8th season in which he missed out for 0.2 boards a game. Same applies to Duncan. 13 straight seasons of averaging double digit boards, with 6 of them being when he played with David Robinson who was indeed old but still averaged 9.2 rebounds a game from 98 to 03. I am fine with them having the same grade as Evans but never being below him. Bosh being the same grade as Ibaka is also kinda strange since Bosh has 3 seasons with over 10 rpg whilst Ibaka doesn't even have a single season at 9+. One of the 2 has to change tiers, and by looking at the rest of the B- list, Bosh should be upgraded. Dirk at C+ is also very debatable. He wasn't the greatest rebounder by any means, especially for his height but he has 5 seasons of 9+ rpg with 2 of them (9.9 rpg) being barely below the double digit mark. I think B- is appropriate.

I'll try to address all these by section.

INSIDE SCORING

You already mentioned Jumping being a part of this rating, so keep that in mind with these responses.

- Tim Duncan: He's got the highest Inside Scoring rating of any power forward in the file. I'm very confident in that rating, but I'm fine giving him a slight Jumping boost to get him to an A- INS grade.
- Dirk Nowitzki: I think you sort of answered your own gripe here. A lot of those post fades you're referring to (anything outside of 10 feet, I think) is being counted as mid-range, where Dirk's rating is one of the highest in the file. Even still, his Inside Scoring rating is tied for the fifth-highest among all these power forwards.
- Serge Ibaka: I'll lower his Inside Scoring rating, but his Jumping is going to keep him at a B- INS grade.
- Luis Scola: Jumping was the only thing keeping him down; his Inside Scoring rating alone had him right on the fringe. I'll give him the slight Jumping boost to bump him up.

OUTSIDE SCORING

- Serge Ibaka: I absolutely do not agree that Ibaka should be in the class of Frye, Bonner, etc. as an outside shooter. His mid-range ability is among the best power forwards, but as a three-point shooter, I do not think he got to the level of the players in the B+ tier.
- Ersan Ilyasova: He's already right on the B+ fringe, I think.

DEFENSE

Before I start, just a general statement that sometimes the Stealing/Blocking ratings can inflate/deflate a guy here to look like a better defender than they should. They are weighted way too heavily in the formula.

- Chris Bosh: I think a B+ DEF grade is more than fair. I actually had him at a B before recently upping him (done before your post). Ibaka's rating is carried by his shot blocking ability.
- Amar'e Stoudemire: Fine with lowering him even further. C+ DEF seems right.
- Drew Gooden: Gooden was never a good shot blocker and that kills his grade here.

REBOUNDING

- Reggie Evans / Kevin Love: So I think the confusion here, and the reason for the discrepancy, is that Kevin Love's offensive rebounding numbers fell off a cliff once he developed his outside shot and started straying away from the basket more, which is obviously closer to the prime version we have here. While you could certainly make the argument that Love never "lost" the ability to offensive rebound; he simply just stopped going for as many, his rating has to be lowered here to get him to play like he should. I'll give him a slight boost, but I still think the A- REB grade is fair for prime Kevin Love. Early career Kevin Love would be an A, but with worse scoring ratings.
- Tim Duncan: Third-highest Defensive Rebounding rating among all the power forwards, he was just never an elite offensive rebounder (not sure if this was just the Spurs scheme or what, but the numbers just aren't there at any point in his career).
- Chris Bosh / Serge Ibaka: The offensive rebounding just isn't good enough for Bosh to go up a grade. If you look at the per 36 numbers in what are being considered their primes:

Player	OREB (Per 36)	DREB (Per 36)	REB (PER 36)
Bosh (2007-2010)	3.3	6.1	9.5
Ibaka (2011-2014)	2.7	6.9	9.7

Given this, I think the same tier is apt.

- Dirk Nowitzki: The problem here is that Dirk's Offensive Rebounding rating is actually the second lowest among all the power forwards, and the grade weights this equally with Defensive Rebounding. His Defensive Rebounding rating is in the top seven among all the power forwards.

Fine with everything. Just a little clarity on Reggie Evans cause i think you only touched on Love. Moving to Love, i think his peak was the 3 years before leaving Minny, at least individually. In those 3 seasons he averaged 3.4 orpg. I also think that judging based on per36 when comparing role players to stars is also lacking a bit of context. Especially when talking specialists vs all around players. Like we all know Lebron is a top 10 (arguably top 5) playmaker of all time but his raw assist and turnover numbers don't really indicate that. That's because he had 1000 other responsibilities on the floor. He wasn't a specialist like someone like Mark Jackson let's say who has a higher career assist average but is clearly a worse playmaker. I think the same thing is happening in the Love/Evans comparison and in the Ibaka/Bosh comparison. Love and Bosh, being the main scorers for their team, never had as many opportunities to grab offensive boards, exactly due to them usually shooting the ball instead of bracing up for the rebound. Especially when both played with some great rebounders by their side who split the boards with them (Pekovic, Lebron, Tristan Thompson, Haslem etc). We can see this same effect with Reggie when he was in Philly in 08 at just 27 years old next to a guy like Samuel Dalembert. In that season Evans had his 4th highest mpg season and he averaged 7.5 boards a game, which would have him at 12 rebounds a game per36. Which don't get me wrong is very impressive but that's worse than the last 4 years of Love's Minny stint, and barely better than Love's 2nd season in the league. Matter of fact if we go by strictly per36, that Reggie Evans season is worse than Love's ENTIRE Minny stint in which he never had a season below 12.3 rpg per36. Want to know when Evans' rebounding numbers jumped back up? When he went to Toronto (even in a small sample due to injuries). Not in his first season cause of Bosh playing 36, Bargnani playing 35, Amir Johnson playing 18 and Turkoglu also playing 31 mpg. In the next season, after BOTH Bosh and Hedo left, with Reggie now being the starting PF for 65% of the games he played, now averaged a CAREER HIGH 11.5 rpg, with a career high in orpg too. Why? Because he played next to one of the worst rebounding centers of the modern era in Bargnani, who was also absent from the paint due to majority of his scoring coming from outside the paint. It's not a coincidence that it's also Amir Johnson's 3rd best rebounding season after taking the starting role from Evans due to his injury. That season for Amir was his 3rd best in rpg but just 5th in mpg. Same arguments apply to Ibaka/Bosh

May 11, 2024 18:49:32 GMT -5 nickmolyvia said:

May 11, 2024 13:07:07 GMT -5 CC06 said:

I'll try to address all these by section.

INSIDE SCORING

You already mentioned Jumping being a part of this rating, so keep that in mind with these responses.

- Tim Duncan: He's got the highest Inside Scoring rating of any power forward in the file. I'm very confident in that rating, but I'm fine giving him a slight Jumping boost to get him to an A- INS grade.
- Dirk Nowitzki: I think you sort of answered your own gripe here. A lot of those post fades you're referring to (anything outside of 10 feet, I think) is being counted as mid-range, where Dirk's rating is one of the highest in the file. Even still, his Inside Scoring rating is tied for the fifth-highest among all these power forwards.
- Serge Ibaka: I'll lower his Inside Scoring rating, but his Jumping is going to keep him at a B- INS grade.
- Luis Scola: Jumping was the only thing keeping him down; his Inside Scoring rating alone had him right on the fringe. I'll give him the slight Jumping boost to bump him up.

OUTSIDE SCORING

- Serge Ibaka: I absolutely do not agree that Ibaka should be in the class of Frye, Bonner, etc. as an outside shooter. His mid-range ability is among the best power forwards, but as a three-point shooter, I do not think he got to the level of the players in the B+ tier.
- Ersan Ilyasova: He's already right on the B+ fringe, I think.

DEFENSE

Before I start, just a general statement that sometimes the Stealing/Blocking ratings can inflate/deflate a guy here to look like a better defender than they should. They are weighted way too heavily in the formula.

- Chris Bosh: I think a B+ DEF grade is more than fair. I actually had him at a B before recently upping him (done before your post). Ibaka's rating is carried by his shot blocking ability.
- Amar'e Stoudemire: Fine with lowering him even further. C+ DEF seems right.
- Drew Gooden: Gooden was never a good shot blocker and that kills his grade here.

REBOUNDING

- Reggie Evans / Kevin Love: So I think the confusion here, and the reason for the discrepancy, is that Kevin Love's offensive rebounding numbers fell off a cliff once he developed his outside shot and started straying away from the basket more, which is obviously closer to the prime version we have here. While you could certainly make the argument that Love never "lost" the ability to offensive rebound; he simply just stopped going for as many, his rating has to be lowered here to get him to play like he should. I'll give him a slight boost, but I still think the A- REB grade is fair for prime Kevin Love. Early career Kevin Love would be an A, but with worse scoring ratings.
- Tim Duncan: Third-highest Defensive Rebounding rating among all the power forwards, he was just never an elite offensive rebounder (not sure if this was just the Spurs scheme or what, but the numbers just aren't there at any point in his career).
- Chris Bosh / Serge Ibaka: The offensive rebounding just isn't good enough for Bosh to go up a grade. If you look at the per 36 numbers in what are being considered their primes:

Player	OREB (Per 36)	DREB (Per 36)	REB (PER 36)
Bosh (2007-2010)	3.3	6.1	9.5
Ibaka (2011-2014)	2.7	6.9	9.7

Given this, I think the same tier is apt.

- Dirk Nowitzki: The problem here is that Dirk's Offensive Rebounding rating is actually the second lowest among all the power forwards, and the grade weights this equally with Defensive Rebounding. His Defensive Rebounding rating is in the top seven among all the power forwards.

Fine with everything. Just a little clarity on Reggie Evans cause i think you only touched on Love. Moving to Love, i think his peak was the 3 years before leaving Minny, at least individually. In those 3 seasons he averaged 3.4 orpg. I also think that judging based on per36 when comparing role players to stars is also lacking a bit of context. Especially when talking specialists vs all around players. Like we all know Lebron is a top 10 (arguably top 5) playmaker of all time but his raw assist and turnover numbers don't really indicate that. That's because he had 1000 other responsibilities on the floor. He wasn't a specialist like someone like Mark Jackson let's say who has a higher career assist average but is clearly a worse playmaker. I think the same thing is happening in the Love/Evans comparison and in the Ibaka/Bosh comparison. Love and Bosh, being the main scorers for their team, never had as many opportunities to grab offensive boards, exactly due to them usually shooting the ball instead of bracing up for the rebound. Especially when both played with some great rebounders by their side who split the boards with them (Pekovic, Lebron, Tristan Thompson, Haslem etc). We can see this same effect with Reggie when he was in Philly in 08 at just 27 years old next to a guy like Samuel Dalembert. In that season Evans had his 4th highest mpg season and he averaged 7.5 boards a game, which would have him at 12 rebounds a game per36. Which don't get me wrong is very impressive but that's worse than the last 4 years of Love's Minny stint, and barely better than Love's 2nd season in the league. Matter of fact if we go by strictly per36, that Reggie Evans season is worse than Love's ENTIRE Minny stint in which he never had a season below 12.3 rpg per36. Want to know when Evans' rebounding numbers jumped back up? When he went to Toronto (even in a small sample due to injuries). Not in his first season cause of Bosh playing 36, Bargnani playing 35, Amir Johnson playing 18 and Turkoglu also playing 31 mpg. In the next season, after BOTH Bosh and Hedo left, with Reggie now being the starting PF for 65% of the games he played, now averaged a CAREER HIGH 11.5 rpg, with a career high in orpg too. Why? Because he played next to one of the worst rebounding centers of the modern era in Bargnani, who was also absent from the paint due to majority of his scoring coming from outside the paint. It's not a coincidence that it's also Amir Johnson's 3rd best rebounding season after taking the starting role from Evans due to his injury. That season for Amir was his 3rd best in rpg but just 5th in mpg. Same arguments apply to Ibaka/Bosh

I totally understand the argument about specialists versus a star player who is counted on to do a lot more than just rebound. At the end of the day, Reggie Evans was an elite rebounder, and the fact that he was so good at it on both ends is why his grade is so high. On offense, he had no shooting range; he just went for rebounds. On defense, he wasn't a shot blocker; he just went for rebounds.

You brought up the Raptors season and playing next to Bargnani, but in 2012-13 he was the starting PF on a 49-win Nets team and led the league in both offensive and defensive rebounding percentage (playing next to Brook Lopez who is often maligned for his rebounding, though his teams are usually good rebounding teams). He also led the league in rebounding percentage in his Seattle days. Even if I based Evans' ratings off his worst seasons (this wouldn't be fair, but just proving a point), he'd still be an A- REB grade.

May 13, 2024 6:56:54 GMT -5 CC06 said:

May 11, 2024 18:49:32 GMT -5 nickmolyvia said:

Fine with everything. Just a little clarity on Reggie Evans cause i think you only touched on Love. Moving to Love, i think his peak was the 3 years before leaving Minny, at least individually. In those 3 seasons he averaged 3.4 orpg. I also think that judging based on per36 when comparing role players to stars is also lacking a bit of context. Especially when talking specialists vs all around players. Like we all know Lebron is a top 10 (arguably top 5) playmaker of all time but his raw assist and turnover numbers don't really indicate that. That's because he had 1000 other responsibilities on the floor. He wasn't a specialist like someone like Mark Jackson let's say who has a higher career assist average but is clearly a worse playmaker. I think the same thing is happening in the Love/Evans comparison and in the Ibaka/Bosh comparison. Love and Bosh, being the main scorers for their team, never had as many opportunities to grab offensive boards, exactly due to them usually shooting the ball instead of bracing up for the rebound. Especially when both played with some great rebounders by their side who split the boards with them (Pekovic, Lebron, Tristan Thompson, Haslem etc). We can see this same effect with Reggie when he was in Philly in 08 at just 27 years old next to a guy like Samuel Dalembert. In that season Evans had his 4th highest mpg season and he averaged 7.5 boards a game, which would have him at 12 rebounds a game per36. Which don't get me wrong is very impressive but that's worse than the last 4 years of Love's Minny stint, and barely better than Love's 2nd season in the league. Matter of fact if we go by strictly per36, that Reggie Evans season is worse than Love's ENTIRE Minny stint in which he never had a season below 12.3 rpg per36. Want to know when Evans' rebounding numbers jumped back up? When he went to Toronto (even in a small sample due to injuries). Not in his first season cause of Bosh playing 36, Bargnani playing 35, Amir Johnson playing 18 and Turkoglu also playing 31 mpg. In the next season, after BOTH Bosh and Hedo left, with Reggie now being the starting PF for 65% of the games he played, now averaged a CAREER HIGH 11.5 rpg, with a career high in orpg too. Why? Because he played next to one of the worst rebounding centers of the modern era in Bargnani, who was also absent from the paint due to majority of his scoring coming from outside the paint. It's not a coincidence that it's also Amir Johnson's 3rd best rebounding season after taking the starting role from Evans due to his injury. That season for Amir was his 3rd best in rpg but just 5th in mpg. Same arguments apply to Ibaka/Bosh

I totally understand the argument about specialists versus a star player who is counted on to do a lot more than just rebound. At the end of the day, Reggie Evans was an elite rebounder, and the fact that he was so good at it on both ends is why his grade is so high. On offense, he had no shooting range; he just went for rebounds. On defense, he wasn't a shot blocker; he just went for rebounds.

You brought up the Raptors season and playing next to Bargnani, but in 2012-13 he was the starting PF on a 49-win Nets team and led the league in both offensive and defensive rebounding percentage (playing next to Brook Lopez who is often maligned for his rebounding, though his teams are usually good rebounding teams). He also led the league in rebounding percentage in his Seattle days. Even if I based Evans' ratings off his worst seasons (this wouldn't be fair, but just proving a point), he'd still be an A- REB grade.

No problem with him being at A. I just don't see how he is a better rebounder than peak KLove. That's my point. Same for Ibaka vs Bosh